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Post by ian on Feb 18, 2015 18:03:49 GMT
Hey never mind confusing for the novice I think it is very confusing for many. As I say if you have spent your hard earned pennies on a miniature you want to show it so my advice is show it decide if it conforms to a class and show it with confidence that the judge will get it right ............. Hopefully.
Ian
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Post by ste b on Feb 18, 2015 19:20:03 GMT
Hey never mind confusing for the novice I think it is very confusing for many. As I say if you have spent your hard earned pennies on a miniature you want to show it so my advice is show it decide if it conforms to a class and show it with confidence that the judge will get it right ............. Hopefully. Ian Am a miniature grower and we have entered a mine field am more confused now than before , good job nobody mentioned Rycroft Jan whoops . |
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Post by ian on Feb 18, 2015 19:21:55 GMT
Hi Steve and I will not sort it out. Breeders need to sort this one hehe
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Post by ian on Feb 18, 2015 19:25:56 GMT
Anyway what is wrong with Jan a great ball dahlia hehe
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Post by ste b on Feb 18, 2015 20:02:50 GMT
Anyway what is wrong with Jan a great ball dahlia hehe And Dave's Choice is a good dec ? It is hard call some miniatures, I think if we merged them together we might lose a few ball dahlias, jomanda and Mary's will be ok there easy to grow lancresse and others hard to get quality blooms on the bench takes more plants to achieve this , only seen Dave's choice, once can't find it for sale anywhere? Am looking for a good mini ball thinking about Blayton lady in red? going back to lancresse if you catch it right takes some beating . |
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dahliadave
Junior Member
"Chocolate" red seedling 5 plants in a 70cm pot in July.
Posts: 77 
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Post by dahliadave on Feb 18, 2015 20:12:31 GMT
hi Moonlight yes it is very confusing and you are dead right if it does not conform to the class specification then it should not win ie dec formation in a ball class, but you cannot disqualify it if it is not classified. Now some dec's and balls are so close that it can be difficult when judging. There are a couple of ball dahlias more of a ball then Mary's jo ie Lancress great formation of grown to potential an excellent dahlia that will still win and Barbarry Kesteral again has great ball formation ie fully double blooms tendency to be flat on top petals tend to be more rounded at the tip involute for at least 75% of the length of the floret (now that is ok but we cannot take out petals to see if they are 75% involuted) whereas a dec is double the florets tend to be flatter and broader and involuted for now more 75% of its length they usually have a blunt point. Clear as mud I know. It is not as straight forwards as it may seem. Some of this is the breeders fault as they want in the main there miniatures to be dec's (again only an opinion) please breeders don't shout at me. They do tend to be better recieved as a dec and as I mentioned before some balls and dec's are very similar that until a variety is classified they will show it were they feel it suits best, whether it fully conforms or not. Now another one for you Daves Choice was classified as a dec in 2010 then because it was shown very well down south by a couple of top growers as a ball for a couple of years it was then classified as a miniature Ball. Ah well the debate goes on and on and on and unless we as judges really down point a miniature dec in a ball class and vice versa then breeders will continue to breed in they way they do. Rycroft Andrea Lawson went the other way a few years back and, although not shown that often now the Tom Cleghorn variety L.A.T.E, started life as a miniature ball, then was re-classified as a Miniature Dec, and is now re-classified as a Miniature Ball again. David Digweed was a Small Dec than re-classified as a Small Ball yet it has some of the best Small Decorative formation on our land! In fact there a number of Small and Miniature Balls that look more like Decs than some of the Decs do on our land!!! Maybe it is because we are further North and have normally cooler summers. Problem is there is infinite variation between the 2 types and it was beginning to frustrate my Dad as well. My Dad's policy was that whenever we introduce a new variety that invariably has not been classified in the directory we always include it in the section of our list that we feel it best conforms to- obviously after discussion with the breeder and noting how it has performed with them. It is fairly obvious with some varieties as to what classification they are but the Balls and Decs certainly seem to cause the most confusion. If I am right way back in the 50's Decs had a much looser habit than they do now as you might see from his winning 6 vases of 9 Small Decs at the National show at Vincent Square in 1953. |
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dahliadave
Junior Member
"Chocolate" red seedling 5 plants in a 70cm pot in July.
Posts: 77
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Post by dahliadave on Feb 18, 2015 20:13:58 GMT
Ok so the picture didn't post! I shall have to try again!
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Post by ian on Feb 18, 2015 20:14:09 GMT
Hi Steve you need to carry on with Lanacress you grow it well , now have you tried Kestral that is a good one?
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Post by ian on Feb 18, 2015 20:27:36 GMT
Hi Dave you are dead right the debate will go on and on the problem in the main is mostly with miniatures. I said earlier we can show them as we see fit as long as they conform to the class. Yes initially you can only go off what the breeders says the form is and their recommendations, some cultivars are very very similar in the form and will grow differently on one another's plots and North to South we will have to live with this and be guided by the classified committee and whilst they are not classified make the most of it. Dave hope your Dad is comfortable. Cheers Ian
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Post by ste b on Feb 18, 2015 20:35:37 GMT
Hi Steve you need to carry on with Lanacress you grow it well , now have you tried Kestral that is a good one? Hi Ian am still growing lancresse , need a back up or two in case I can't get the five for Harrogate , Kestral good to grow then it looked good at Harrogate nice even colour. |
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Post by Raymond on Feb 18, 2015 21:02:30 GMT
I find this debate fascinating also so confusing.
I am growing or attempting to grow
Winholm Diane
senzoe Ursula
pink suffusion
Clearview Debby as my sml Dec
only numbers in senzoe and Diane
Dikara superb
pegwell Dan ( to trial) min Dec
Mary's jomanda as min ball
plus I have the two hapets pearl and daydream supposed to be min ball.
I am bambozzled with all this. Hahahaha I cannot see how polventon kristobal could win in a sml ball. It is a Dec formation in my novice eyes.
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Post by ste b on Feb 18, 2015 21:24:57 GMT
Seen kristobal at Harrogate Raymond and it's a mini dec if I was a judge and seen a vase in small ball class , think someone was pulling my novice judge leg.
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Post by Raymond on Feb 18, 2015 21:33:10 GMT
Seen kristobal at Harrogate Raymond and it's a mini dec if I was a judge and seen a vase in small ball class , think someone was pulling my novice judge leg. In the bulletin kristobal had a first and second in sml ball . I find that ridiculous ! Hey ho |
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Post by ste b on Feb 18, 2015 22:02:02 GMT
Seen kristobal at Harrogate Raymond and it's a mini dec if I was a judge and seen a vase in small ball class , think someone was pulling my novice judge leg. In the bulletin kristobal had a first and second in sml ball . I find that ridiculous ! Hey ho I agree with you, I wonder if the mini ring went over them hehe, it's like jomanda mini ring goes over it and exhibitors enter it in sm ball class looking for red cards gets my back up. I've put mini jo and Mary's in mini class and got 1st and 2 nd , pulled after judging by judge he said why did you not put jomanda in sm class it would have won , but my vases where miniatures , we as exhibitors have to put our entries in right class , take note how meny times at shows a vase of mini jomanda wins a sm class. |
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Post by ian on Feb 18, 2015 22:16:24 GMT
You are dead right the only way you will stop this is to classify varieties before they can be shown. Now as chairman of judges I did not see this at the time of judging, had I have seen this at the time of judging I would have given my opinion.
Now the class it was shown in at Harrogate was shown by Dave Spencer was small ball miniature ball and pom ther were four in the class remember Kristobel is not classified so therefore cannot be disqualified the entry was awarded 3rd out of 4 entries I did not see the pointing but I bet it was the Kritobel that cost him. It also won the seedling class at Harrogate as a miniature dec at both shows it won 4 firsts 2 seconds 1 third it was not shown as a miniature ball at Harrogate of Wisley. But was show as a small ball in the class mentioned earlier by David Spencer and a small dec by Terry Bratcher at Wisley which gained second prize (only two entries) and third at Wisley in the seedling class
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